Tray Wellington and the Black Stringband Symposium
On advancing musically and in the culture with an artist at the vanguard of banjo
Last week was a doozy for me. My work email was hacked. Through my security app for work. This cost me at least a full day of frantically trying to put out that fire (I quickly restored/secured the email, so no worries now). I also found that this series is now podcast non grata at Spotify. They (or their bot?) tell me that I cannot use the podcast to distribute music no matter what permission I have to use music in the podcast. Hmmm. I can think of many podcasts on that platform that employ music in similar ways that I do (which is almost always excerpted, and falls under fair use doctrine) — how do you think those other music-centric podcasts still remain there? I welcome your thoughts.
Onwards to an exciting new episode!
Welcome to the Southern Songs and Stories newsletter, with our transcript of the podcast episode on Tray Wellington and the Black Stringband Symposium. To hear the podcast, simply visit our website and/or follow the series on your podcast app of choice (minus one). Hundreds of episodes which contain an untold number of music artists, professionals and fans await you there.
Here is the script of our episode with transcripts of our interview:
[“Moon In Motion 1” by Tray Wellington, from Detour To The Moon, continuing as bed]
When was the last time that you were pleasantly surprised? Something happened that you did not expect to turn out as well as it did or be as interesting as you found: a meal, an article, an encounter, maybe even a podcast, where you found a new and unexpected wrinkle that shone new light on the experience.
It turns out that these small and unexpected delights can be a key for learning and curiosity. Studies reveal that unexpected events trigger our brains to release dopamine, which supercharges attention, memory, and learning.
For someone deeply involved in music for decades, I have learned to temper expectations. One can tend to get a little jaded over time, so my list of pleasant surprises with music tend to be pretty modest in nature, like recognizing an artist quoting “Third Stone From The Sun” in a solo, or hearing an old favorite song on the radio. There’s a lot of “been there, done that” in the music world sooner or later, like with anything I guess.
From that perspective, it is also easy to fall into believing you know most everything about your area of expertise, which in my case is music broadly, and roots music especially. But I love it when some new stone is turned over, and luckily the ensuing dopamine hits keep coming my way, like they did at the 2024 IBMA conference, in their series of seminars titled “Roots Revival: A Black Stringband Symposium”. Much of what those panel events put forward was new to me; some of it quite revelatory.
In recent years, roots music fans have been turning over stone after stone when it comes to the importance of Black artists in traditional music, ranging from the very dawn of string bands up to the current era of bluegrass and beyond. Knowledge of key figures like Arnold Shultz and DeFord Bailey is much more widespread now, thanks in large part to the music of Generation X stars like the Carolina Chocolate Drops and Old Crow Medicine Show, who are succeeded by younger generations of artists like Jake Blount and Kaia Kater in making their predecessors’ stories, along with the broader history and culture, much better known.
Tray Wellington took part in the Black Stringband Symposium series, and we caught up after he spoke and played at the seminar titled “Black Music In Appalachia”, which was one of the six hosted by IBMA in partnership with The Banjo Gathering and Elderly Instruments. Tray makes his second appearance on this podcast, and brings us new music as well: his song “Moon In Motion 1”, from his 2024 collection Detour To The Moon, is playing now.
I am Joe Kendrick, welcoming you to our episode on Tray Wellington and the Black Stringband Symposium on Southern Songs and Stories.
[SSaS theme song with VO by Joe K]
The last time I caught up with Tray Wellington for an interview here was the 2022 episode “Melody, Nuance and Innovation on the Banjo With Tray Wellington”, which coincided with his album Black Banjo, which presented elegant, acoustic music that wove in and out bluegrass, old-time and jazz, often fusing these elements within the same song. Tray’s most recent record is Detour To The Moon, which takes his sound even further, and while it travels familiar territory like with a jazz standard with his version of “Caravan”, it also features pedal steel guitar from DaShawn Hickman, a cover of the Kid Cudi hit “Pursuit Of Happiness”, and more vocal tracks, with Nick Weitzenfeld, Kaia Kater and his own singing featured, to name a few examples.
More recently, it was a pleasant surprise to see Tray playing banjo alongside dobro master Jerry Douglas as they joined the band Mumford and Sons for their take on the Simon & Garfunkel classic “The Boxer” on the Saturday Night Live 50th anniversary show.
Our conversation starts here with my question about his new collection. Here’s Tray Wellington:
00:00:40 Tray Wellington
And yeah, the reason I kind of called it Detour To The Moon is, you know, one thing I always try relating music is like, you know, music is so much connected in nature and in like, you know how like in the way of like forward motion, you know, like the. Is always like. Moving forward, you know Tom, as we look at it is always moving forward to my idea with this is you know it's like like in my music you know. You get to a place where you're always ever like, you know, growing and evolving. And, you know, for me, that's definitely like just such a real thing that I always feel like I'm continually growing and but, you know, sometimes when you're creating, like a album, for instance for. A. You need to take a second. And quote UN quote, take a detour to get this album. You know, instead of always like, you know, growing, sometimes you have to take a minute to be like, OK. Am I working on? And we got to, you know, to get some music out and.
Let people know what you're working on, and so the idea with Detour to the Moon is like just taking the idea of, like, oh, let's pause for a minute. Let's make a good album to show people what I'm working on now and then. Let them go forward for the rest of the adventure. .
00:01:54 Joe Kendrick
So, the moon. It gives you a hint that it's a little bit farther out there, yeah.
00:01:59 Tray Wellington
Yeah, it's not even like, you know, further out in terms of musically, it's just a hint of like, oh, this is the first step of like, you know, we're going to keep, you know, growing and keep going out further and further. You know, and it's mostly about just a musical growth thing. You know, 'cause like. You know what we, you know, the moon is just the first step from. Quote UN quote from the Earth and so you know, just like continually making your music a gradual growth idea.
00:02:29 Joe Kendrick
And what do you like about this, about this record? Is. How's it feel for you?
00:02:33 Tray Wellington
Yeah, it just it feels. It feels like you know, this is like a album that I heard and I was like, you know, this doesn't sound like anybody else. In you know but me and I think that's probably my favorite part about it is I think it's my best record to date where I like, listen to it all the way through and been like, you know, there's nobody else doing this kind of stuff.
[“Till Summer Was Gone” by Tray Wellington, from Detour to the Moon, excerpt]
A bit of “Till Summer Was Gone” by Tray Wellington, from Detour To The Moon, featuring Tray Wellington on Banjo; Drew Matulich playing Guitar; Katelynn Bohn on upright Bass; Josiah Nelson on Mandolin and Fiddle; Nick Weitzenfeld on Lead Vocal, and Kaia Kater with Harmony Vocals.
During IBMA’s Black Stringband Symposium, conference attendees were treated to discussion panels on Black women in folk music; Black instrument builders; songs from Black traditions that became bluegrass standards; the lasting legacy of Black pioneers like Arnold Shultz; the history of archival recordings and how Black artists use them today, and the Black Music in Appalachia Showcase, with our guest Tray Wellington.
With over six hours worth of discussions, interspersed with performances and question and answer, there is way too much material to tackle in this episode, so my focus will be on Tray’s panel. However, I encourage anyone who wants to know more about this to contact the folks at The Banjo Gathering and Elderly Instruments, or IBMA.
I can give you one anecdote that stood out, though: in the “Alive In The Archives” seminar, Jake Blount explained how he believes that archives, while ostensibly keeping traditions alive, actually cut people off from living traditions, like oral traditions. He went on to describe his dismay at having to pay royalties for using music he drew from in his work, music that was credited to Alan Lomax but was lifted directly from his Black predecessors, without any compensation. Have you ever had something stolen from you and then had to buy it back? I would be upset, too.
In the seminar “Black Music In Appalachia Showcase”, Tray Wellington joined banjo maker, human rights activist and physician Dena Ross Jennings, storyteller and "The Tennessee Ukulele Lady" Kelle Jolly, and Lee Bidgood, professor and director of the Institute for Appalachian Music and Culture at East Tennessee State University. It was an hour long conversation interspersed with songs played and sung by the panelists, with much of the focus on the importance of place in music and the overall culture of the region. As Bidgood stated towards the beginning of the seminar, they were there in part to challenge myths and misconceptions about Appalachia: that of isolation, while the region is and long has been connected to the wider world; that of being a time capsule, frozen in time, while it has actually been fluid, experiencing growth and at times, radical change; and that of homogeneity, which leads outsiders to think that the region is full of Scotch/Irish descendants exclusively.
While that was not necessarily news to me, some of what came out of that seminar was more or less unknown, like the examples that Dr. Dena Jennings gave about the diversity of Black populations within Appalachia, which include Black Hispanics, and how those populations learned to unite against discrimination.
Afterwards, I asked Tray about hurdles he has faced as a Black artist:
00:03:39 Tray Wellington
Yeah. You know, the biggest thing is just like the passive, you know, it's kind of like not just a bluegrass specific thing, but one of the biggest things is just, you know, like, you know, a lot of people within the bluegrass realm, you know, the, quote, UN quote. And. You know, kind of the same. Like in the world you know, sometimes you'll meet people and they just have, like, a weird reaction. And I'm like, you know, have you. Like, have you never talked to another black person before? You know what I. And that's kind of like the biggest hurdle is a lot of people just, they get awkward and they get into a space and, you know, I've talked to some people about it, you know, closer friends of mine who at one point, you know, like they had some like. When I first, you know, met them, they might have had some weird behaviours and you know, it's like they're like, oh, you know, it's like the whole worry like you don't want to say something like to.
I'm like, oh, all you have to do is treat me like a. That's all I'm asking, and so I'd say that's probably my biggest hurdle, is just like getting people to not be, you know, you know, 'cause, you know, even in bluegrass, you know, as even though, like, you know, the last 10 years, there's been a big growth in the. Of you know people. At these events, it's still a rare thing.
What I. Like I'm still one of the only me and you know, my been, you know, my been mates, a new Dangerfield or some of the only touring bike musicians in the Bluegrass sphere now, you know and.
I think you know it has to be one of those conversations that's just talked about where it's like, oh, we, it's because this is not a normal like to a lot of people. Not like a normal occurrence in their everyday like going to bluegrass, festivals and things like that.
00:05:08 Joe Kendrick
That, sure, and and keeping with the theme of place. The place where you're from and Piedmont Mountain region, North Carolina and Appalachia, you know, it's always been a more diverse place than what was represented in, say, a lot of roots music, or a lot of that roots music.
That we know, was so heavily segregated or, you know, just like, so. Associated with those myths that the that the moderator had talked about, that was, I think, Lee Bidgood. Yeah. I think he framed it pretty well. Well, but. And I forgot where I was going with that, but. Having more representation for black folks, people of color in the genre, it was what I meant to say is that it's your better represented now, but it's also representational or just starting to approach. The representation that was already there in, in the community. Just wasn't in this music part of the community.
00:06:18 Tray Wellington
Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah, I think you know the area I grew up in, you know, it was a predominantly white area, you know. You know, I think I was like 1 of like 7. Black kids in my entire school, maybe less than that, you know, and. It's. But you know there are like a lot of areas of Appalachia, you know, like Boone's one of them where there's like a really large, you know, number of black families that live there with a lot of traditions.
But it is such like a water like people don't. Want to talk about it? You know people, it's like I've forgotten part of the Appalachian experience.
00:06:56 Joe Kendrick
And the a lot of the key aspects of roots music, whether it be bluegrass, old time, a lot of Blues you know has that. Know it's like key ingredients that were foundational, that came from the black community. And that wasn't necessarily acknowledged. At least not nearly as well as it seems to be now. So do you have any comment about how things are going in that regard?
00:07:25 Tray Wellington
Yeah, kind of like how things are moving like forward. Yeah, I think you know they're. It's like a like a lot of steps in the right direction. Biggest thing is still just got to. It's got to be like done for the right reasons. 'cause you know people can see right through, you know, I think a lot of times, like people like, you know, when they're wanting to bring more people in, it's not necessarily for the right. It's 'cause they want to look good on paper to get a grant. Know what I mean?
Or something like that, and I think it just like all these things need to be done with intention and care. And bringing in people that know how to do that, you know, I think a lot of time, you know, people keep with their current staff who partially are causing the issues and they don't, you know, bring in people that know what they're doing in this field of like. Making people feel welcome and what not.
00:08:11 Joe Kendrick
How much do you think age comes into this? Here it seems to me that younger generations are much more easygoing in this regard, into accepting people no matter what they look like into a roots music community, for example. But more so than that, it just seems to me. I could be wrong that younger generations. Are less keyed up about this sort of thing, maybe.
00:08:38 Tray Wellington
Yeah, I think you know. Yeah, it's a yes and no. In a way, I think there's you find more acceptance in a younger crowd just simply because there's more education, more knowledge out there. But also think you know again at the end of the day, it's like, you know. So younger generations are being raised by an older generation. Still, you know what, I. And you know, obviously like younger generations are always like, you know, going to have people that, you know, challenge those beliefs. But a lot of the time, you know, especially.
You know, in certain aspects like I think a lot of people you know are still going to keep following in those. Unfortunately, I think it takes people, you know, if you are lucky enough to have somebody that is willing to challenge you in those beliefs and try to get you to open your mind, you know that's one of the best things you can have. But You know, a lot of people don't have that, unfortunately. And so they stick in these same. Mindset and it kind of keeps that cycle going. So I'd say it's like a yes and no. I'd say it's like, you know, generally yes. But like a lot of times, no.
[jump to]
00:10:15 Joe Kendrick
So I I was thinking that you know. How do you think it? Are we getting beyond? Do you see any light at the end of that tunnel? Are we getting beyond tokenism now? I mean, it's existed in. It's existed in film, all sorts of, you know, media, entertainment and it still does.
00:10:33
Yeah.
00:10:36 Joe Kendrick
But do you think we're turning the corner?
00:10:41 Tray Wellington
I don't know if turning a corner is the right way to put it. You know, I think there's a lot of work that still needs to be done. I think you know it could be a thing. I think it's really just people, you know. Kind of re, restructuring their thoughts. You know, it's like I think a lot of the time people get confused with like the idea of like, you know, like, oh, I'm a black musician, you know, I think some people get confused. They say, like, they think, oh, we need to treat Tray, you know. Better than somebody else. And it's like, no, the key factors, you know the whole thing in the word in this is equality. You know, I just want to be treated like everybody else. Don't want to be a weird, you know.
Does that make sense?
00:11:20 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, because I think I think Kelle Jolly was pointing to that rather strongly and how she was addressed and how she was approached on multiple levels at this one event and in particular, and it struck me as like. Oh, I can see that as being in very true, and I've never experienced that in my life and now might be one of the first times I've ever really thought about that this way.
00:11:49 Tray Wellington
Yeah. No. Yeah, she did a great job at explaining that.
00:11:52 Joe Kendrick
Yeah. So, you know, my hat's off to you for having to walk that road. It's not. It doesn't sound like it's been easy or it's going to get any easier really. Right away at least.
00:12:06 Tray Wellington
Yeah, you know, it's like something we have a long way to go for, you know, in like a lot of ways. Like I said, I do think it's getting better in a lot of ways, but it's like also. So you know, it still does. Like, you know, a lot of it says, like little microaggression thing. You know that like, people don't even realize they're doing. I think it comes from a good place, but you know it takes people being willing to have those conversations and not being like awkward when having those.
Think a big thing too is like people. And I get it. It's like a very awkward thing to talk about. You know? It's like awkward to, like, bring up any of these things, but it's like it's real issues and like to get, you know. I think all of our growing moments in life are all about like being put in those uncomfortable positions, like where you have to, like, be forced to look at yourself and be like, oh, am I like looking at things the right way or am I like, you know?
You get to and you know when what you think about being a person is we get to make those decisions for ourselves and. Hopefully people will see like, oh, this is like, you know, maybe the way certain micro things I'm doing or making somebody comfortable, maybe I can change those things.
[“Lift Up Every Stone” by Tray Wellington, from Detour to the Moon, excerpt]
Right in pocket with the tradition of Appalachian murder ballads, that is an excerpt of Tray Wellington’s version of a John Hiatt song, “Lift Up Every Stone”, from his EP Detour to the Moon.
In addition to leading his own band, Tray is a member of the roots music supergroup New Dangerfield, which includes Jake Blount, Kaia Kater, and Nelson Williams. It was at IBMA in 2023 where I saw that group’s debut performance. Here is Tray Wellington:
00:13:21 Tray Wellington
Yeah, it's been. It's it's a really cool band. It's like me, Jake Blount. Kaia Kater and Nelson Williams. And yeah, it's been really, really incredible. We've really been. You know, working on a lot of new material. Been, you know, in the studio.
We've done a lot of really cool gigs, you know, like we started this one year ago thinking this was going to be like a one off band for IBMA, just something to like, you know, do that. They were asking about and then, you know, it just turned into, you know, like we've played Newport Folk Festival and we played, you know. Biggest folk vessels in the country in one year of, you know, starting this band it. Crazy thing, but you know, like our mission. And the thing like, I love so much about it is, you know, we're very clear about our mission. And it seems like people are really receptive to that.
00:14:09 Joe Kendrick
Well, more power to you and I hope the the change is going to keep going. Positive keeps in a positive direction and best wishes for Detour to the Moon. I know it's a quality music. I’ve seen you play some of it live this week and it's just it's just a real trip.
00:14:26 Tray Wellington
Thank you.
[“Spiral Staircase” by Tray Wellington, from Detour to the Moon, continuing as bed]
Wrapping up our episode with “Spiral Staircase”, the Tray Wellington original from his collection Detour to the Moon. Tray is set to play many dates in spring 2025 with both New Dangerfield as well as his own band.
Thank you so much for sharing your time with us, and we hope you can help us again by sharing a word about what we are doing. It is as easy as telling a friend and following this podcast on your platform of choice. From there it takes just a moment to give us a top rating, and where it is an option, a review! It makes a great difference because the more top reviews and ratings we get, the more visible we become to everyone on apps like Apple Podcasts, YouTube and TuneIn, which means that more people just like you connect with artists like Tray Wellington.
This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available at osirispod.com. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio at bluegrassplanetradio.com. Thanks also to Jaclyn Anthony for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng who wrote and performed our theme songs.
I am your host and producer Joe Kendrick, and this is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.
What a surprise, Spotify notified me today that my podcast is being restored there!