Update: The Earl Scruggs Music Festival was a peak experience for me, and from the reports I see and hear, for practically everyone else who attended and who was involved in producing the festival. There, I interviewed Lindsay Lou, Twisted Pine and The Faux Paws, as well as a quick introductory message from festival host Jerry Douglas, which aired on WNCW immediately afterward. I am already excited for next year’s event and am very glad to see that the festival is nominated for Event Of The Year at this year’s IBMA! I will be there once again and have a busy schedule of interviews and reporting coming into focus. As we say in radio, stay tuned!
Thanks for checking out this text version of the podcast series Southern Songs and Stories! This post is a continuation of our Substack series of posts giving you the scripts of our audio and transcripts of our interviews. To hear the episode, simply search for Southern Songs and Stories on any podcast app, or visit us at southernsongsandstories.com for that and much more.
I have been reading about Plato and Aristotle lately, in Jeffrey Kripal’s fascinating book, The Flip. Early on in the essay, Kripal points to the history of Western intellectual discourse having swung widely back and forth between the visionary philosophy of Plato, and the empirical rationalism of his student, Aristotle. In Plato’s view, our perception of reality involves our brains, but goes beyond our physiology to pull from a kind of exterior consciousness, which is filtered through our senses, bringing us what can become profound discoveries. In contrast, the empirical rationalist view of our consciousness attests that it comes from and ends with our physical selves.
Have you ever tried your hand at art, in one or more of its myriad forms? How did that go for you? Were you wracking your brain to come up with an idea, trying hard to get it all right, or were you letting your mind drift, quietly waiting for inspiration? I have plenty of experience with the former, especially in the early years of Southern Songs and Stories. Those first podcasts were longer, chock full of interviews with not only the subjects of each episode, but also quite often including many guests’ conversations which were excerpted from their own individual interviews, and a kind of encyclopedic approach to the endeavor. Not that I utterly eschewed clearing my mind and letting things come to me, but I came to realize its advantages more over time. That, and I simply improved as a writer and interviewer, and learned firsthand that less can often be more in this medium.
Margo Cilker certainly understands this, and her creative practice echoes a Platonic viewpoint, as she remarked, “My best art comes when I’m not trying too hard, and when I find out what’s on the other side of the song”. Many of her songs involve scenes and characters from small towns, like Santa Rosa, New Mexico, or Tahachapi, California, as well as locales in Upstate South Carolina, where she attended college and where we spoke on the day of her performance at the Albino Skunk Music Festival.
Southern Songs and Stories is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
Here is the script for the podcast, including a transcript of my conversation with Margo Cilker. Enjoy!
[“I Remember Carolina” by Margo Cilker, performed live at Albino Skunk Music Festival 05/09/24, continuing as bed]
00:17:52 Margo Cilker
“My best art comes when I, I'm not trying too hard, and when I just find out what's on the other side of the song, it's just like anybody listening to it unfurl over the three minutes, you know, like for me, that's like when I'm at my best.
I'm just the medium and I'm like, finding out what I’m writing, you know. So I have nothing. There's no comment I could make about why I sing about small towns across the country. It's just something I do. I don't know why?”
Margo Cilker sings about more than small towns, but perhaps a small town sensibility is part of what helps her, as she suggested here, to relax a bit and let things come to her rather than overthink her inspiration. The Muse is slippery if you try to grasp it too tightly, and it is an art form in itself to open a pathway to that well of creativity, a pathway that can lead past small towns that just might reflect, in the hands of an artist like Margo Cilker, a much larger world.
I spoke with Margo Cilker in early May 2024, the day she played this song, “I Remember Carolina”, at the Albino Skunk Music Festival, located in Upstate South Carolina, not too far from where she attended Clemson University. Originally from California’s Santa Clara Valley, Margo now lives in Goldendale, Washington, and as the lyrics of this song attest, she has been all over the country, drawing insights and taking inspiration everywhere along the way.
In this episode, we talk about those travels, cultural differences between Appalachia and the American West, working with Maya De Vitry, who performed with her at Margo’s Albino Skunk debut that day, her focus on the lyrics to her songs, and more, including more music from her live set. I am Joe Kendrick, welcoming you to our episode on Margo Cilker on Southern Songs and Stories.
[SSaS intro theme with VO by Joe K]
Margo Cilker and I sat behind the green room at the Albino Skunk Music Festival in Greer, SC on a cool spring afternoon, just ahead of her set that evening. Temperatures were in the low 70s, and the weather had finally cleared after torrential rains flooded large portions of the festival grounds in the days leading up to the bi-annual event, causing a slight delay for its kickoff that day. Margo would bring on stage fellow SkunkFest performers Maya De Vitry, whom I interviewed the next day, as well as her fellow Clemson classmate and collaborator, Brooks Dixon, whose band played that afternoon around the time of our conversation, which begins with my question about how she decided to attend school in South Carolina rather than her native California.
00:00:31 Margo Cilker
Yeah, I've sort of claimed a lot of homes, but that's kind of just the type of person I am. But I chose to go to Clemson to experience a new region of the country from the one that I grew up in and I started listening to roots music and that sort of led me out this way.
00:00:48 Joe Kendrick
And then what was the Clemson experience like? Like, how does that play in with your overall, the arc of your story?
00:00:57 Margo Cilker
Well. I feel, I feel like I learned well as an artist. You know, I love to observe. That's kind of what you do is like paying attention is an important thing. So to be in a new environment for me, like a physical new environment like the the ecology, just like The Woodlands here feels so different. The Poison Ivy looks different from the poison oak. I like it was when I was a budding songwriter, you know, so being in a totally new physical environment was impactful as well as in a new cultural environment. So being observant of all those things sort of. Blended to my songwriting that I was diving into at the time.
00:01:35 Joe Kendrick
It's an immensely important time in your life too -- college years as you're becoming an adult. So how did that inform you musically here versus California? I know you know, all that rich music it, it translates. But there are a lot of variations. There are a lot of things that are more specific to here than there are there.
00:01:55 Margo Cilker
There's. Well, I've never really been to a bluegrass brunch before and there's. There was like just string bands set up in a lot of BBQ spots, and that's a cool culture that I I don't know those that's different. You don't just. Stumble upon that. Like. I feel like. There's a part of the like you. Get out of church and you go to go to get barbecue and there's a bluegrass band playing that. That same kind of thing. I don't think that that those two things would overlap in California.
00:02:24
Hmm.
00:02:32 Margo Cilker
Church letting out in the same churchgoing families stumbling into the barbecue joint to listen to bluegrass. Yeah, and then music. Yeah, it was different. I was able to travel to Asheville, NC, for concerts. That was exciting.
00:02:49 Joe Kendrick
The the whole you know, we're in the Bible belt. So church is foundational to so much of the culture, and that seeps into a lot of your songwriting. I think, you know, thinking about. Song. Keep it on the burner. Sidewalks. I got sunburned. I got books I haven't read. I got neighbors telling neighbors they're burning up when they’re dead.
00:03:15 Margo Cilker
Yep.
00:03:16 Joe Kendrick
And that just rings. Home. Now that rings true. You know, that's pretty close to home for us here, right? Neighbors telling neighbors they're going to burn in hell.
00:03:24 Margo Cilker
With fire and brimstone. Yeah, I mean. Intense, but I actually I found a lot of. I don't, I mean the impulses use the word co-misery, but I think just the relatability that I found having grown up in a conservative Christian environment, I found it. I found this sort of solidarity among other people who had grown up in the same kind of like under the same. Perceptions about. Others. And just life dogma and stuff like that.
[“Keep It On A Burner” by Margo Cilker, performed live at Albino Skunk Music Festival 05/09/24, excerpt]
00:04:56 Joe Kendrick
I think you've mentioned in another interview on WNCW not too long ago that you don't have any plans for another record right now, but what are your plans for the immediate future? Are you still writing or are you just touring?
00:05:10 Margo Cilker
I mean. Yeah. And I've been enjoying time at home and starting to write more and more and just appreciate the time I have to be still. For me, writing sort of really surges out of, like, out of staying still and silence and solitude. For me, solitude is the number one factor that will allow for art to occur from it.
00:05:36 Joe Kendrick
Tell us about, you know that versus the constant motion of being on the road, because there are all these themes, you know, in your, in music of, you know, motion and being sort of grounded in other places you have that sort of theme in some of your songs where you're. What's the song I'm thinking about? I can't even remember exactly, but you're talking about being in, maybe in New Mexico, at the diner with that so.
00:06:01 Margo Cilker
Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is like.
00:06:01 Joe Kendrick
But you're so at home, “Santa Rosa”.
00:06:07 Margo Cilker
I mean, a friend of mine just came on tour with. Us and she had her first plate of hot New Mexican chili and she said, you know, it just was like it was emotional to, for her to have that meal, you know. And that is, we're always searching for that comfort on tour, like something that reminds us of, like a warm hearth, a hug from a loved one. You know, just that sense of comfort. So. Find that on the road is always like a. It's like a. It's sort of like a game we play, you know, trying to find things that make you feel like home when we're traveling. So yeah, that's. Yeah, definitely something that's prevalent in my in my work.
[“Santa Rosa” by Margo Cilker, from Valley Of Heart’s Delight, excerpt]
That’s a bit of “Santa Rosa” from Valley Of Heart’s Delight, her second album. Our conversation continued with my question about how she met Maya De Vitry
00:07:27 Margo Cilker
Well, we I knew she was playing this festival, and Maya’s music? Well, I discovered her music in 2015. So she's been on my radar a long time. And then I reached out to her because I knew she would be here and. Yeah.
00:07:42 Joe Kendrick
Yeah. So I know that Sera Cahoone is producer for both of your records.
00:07:46
Right. Yeah.
00:07:47 Joe Kendrick
And so there's another small world tie in here with where we are now at the Albino Skunk Farm, because Tyler Ramsey at because playing this weekend, it's a former Band Of Horses and. I don't know if you've ever met Tyler, but Sarah said through Sarah, I think. I guess you probably have. So I'd love to see how.
00:08:04 Margo Cilker
I have not met.
00:08:08 Joe Kendrick
Those it's, it's just that. One of those moments where you realize that you're not in that big of a problem, that everybody conic can if they don't know anybody directly. It's not that far.
00:08:17 Margo Cilker
Well, that's just because we're here in the center of the. Universe albinos go. Everyone knows that Skunk Fest is, you know. This is where it's all this is where it all converges.
00:08:28 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, yeah, but I. Mean in the roots music world. In the larger sense. That it's great to to be amongst folks that you know, from an audience standpoint, from somebody looking at it as a fan, it's it's, it's not obvious what's going on behind the scenes or what it's like to be in that world and working.
00:08:48 Margo Cilker
Oh yeah, it's true. I mean, any one musician walks into this green room or backstage area and within, within 30 seconds, we can establish a common point of reference, whether it's like a band. We both. Like have worked with or if. The same festival so and so years ago, you know, do you know what I'm saying? Like you can establish pretty quickly like some little common commonality.
00:09:08 Joe Kendrick
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. I love that about how about a skunk and all of it. You know, the shows that I go to and see everybody and you'll see somebody guesting in another band, you'd be. Like. Oh yeah, that's so and so, yeah. But, well, tell us about the songwriting, because lyrically there's so much and and there's a lot of width there. There's, you know, just a lot of striking, good lyrics, I think, honestly in your songs. So where does that come from?
00:09:42 Margo Cilker
Well, thank you. First of all, that's sweet that you're noticing that I put the work into the words part because that's that is very important to me. I think my. Some of my earlier songwriting influences. Definitely. I think the context. Of their songwriting was important. There's like this setting that I picture of like a coffee house, and I came up on the coffee house circuit. That's like I I was younger than 21 when I started writing songs and wanted to perform them. Therefore, I couldn't go to bars. So not being able to perform in bars is the obvious, like answer to me was singing in coffee shops. So that culture of like. Coffee house open mic nights, stuff like that. You don't owe anybody. Know anybody? Or, like they don't owe you their attention, you know? And it's up to you to, like, turn their head to listen to you. It's up to you. It's on you to create a reason for someone to lean in a little bit and listen to what you're saying. So that's sort of why I I wanted to, I'm trying to write ear catching lyrics at any turn because I want.
I want to I want people to to listen to the songs I'm writing. It sounds so obvious, right? But to me like I care, I want them. I don't like. I don't want them to have to work to do it. I want me to work, to make it easy for. Listen.
00:11:12 Margo Cilker
Does that make sense?
00:11:12 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, yeah, it's just the. The the turns of phrase and you. Know. The joy of saying Tehachapi, I mean it's like what a fun word. Just being honest.
00:11:20 Margo Cilker
Well, it's funny I that song. So that song I mean. I wouldn't have written that on the same time timing that I would have if I hadn't lived in South Carolina. I guess in a twisted way, I learned the song willing from my friend Ed Broyles, who's he's a a picker. From out here and we used to have a song circle out in 6 miles, South Carolina and he taught me the song “Willin’” and it was at a time when I was actually dropping out of college to pursue music. And I felt very empowered learning that song. And well, I felt like lifted by that group of people that I had in. That song circle.
[“Tehachapi” by Margo Cilker, performed live at Albino Skunk Music Festival 05/09/24]
00:13:30 Joe Kendrick
What's happening out in your neck of the woods in Washington, California? You know, the what's happening on the ground with the, the culture, the environment, what do we need to know?
00:13:42 Margo Cilker
That's a good question. What is happening out West? Well, we fret over fire season. That's always looming. We seem to be getting a lot of rain this season. The reservoirs in California are looking good, so that's always exciting. I don't know a lot of great music happening. And you know the summertime, people really want to come out for festivals, so that's kind of where the people are not, not as much a time for playing indoors when it's nice and sunny out. People want to be kicked, kick back outside.
00:14:22 Joe Kendrick
What's the scene like versus out here? Out east? You know, I'm I'm fairly, you know, local to here. So I'm at Merlefest or. It's gone, but I'm not too far away from North or South Carolina. Are the festivals there like the, the, the feel of them? Any much different than they are here?
00:14:32 Margo Cilker
Yeah. Much, much, much dustier I would say, and maybe I'm just comparing them to to here, which is like the muddy festival, but they're, I mean, we've played festivals in, in rodeo grounds, you know, and, and that's great too. It's good fun. Yeah, I guess every region has its, its style, yeah.
Spring Albino Skunk Festival: How it began. Margo Cilker wasn’t kidding when she said it was a muddy festival! Photo: John Gillespie
00:15:04 Joe Kendrick
It's funny. Say dustier, because just before we came out here to do the interview, I was talking with one of the chefs backstage, Bunny. And he was asking where you're from. And I said, OK, Goldendale, it's like, yeah, we played them in high school. It's like high desert up there.
00:15:21 Margo Cilker
Really.
00:15:22 Joe Kendrick
And it's like oh. Wow, that's a really small world.
00:15:25 Margo Cilker
That is, that's so funny. I gotta find the Bunny and shoot the breeze about the.
00:15:28 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, that's right. Bunny's gonna be feed.
00:15:36 Margo Cilker
Nice. Yeah, I mean things out West are just you know that you know how it is. They're more spaced out. They're more physically far, far away from each other. So communities are kind of more. We're just spaced out. Yeah, I don't know how else to describe it. And like the the songwriters that I came up with. Like all. Of us sort of rotate through West Coast places to we just follow wherever. Rent is cheaper, or the opportunities are great enough to to justify paying the rent. You know, like the scene drifts like we we just have like a NS drift. That happens kind of.
00:16:13 Joe Kendrick
Well, why are, you know you're not in your home place now in California and that's been in your family for so long, do you ever see yourself returning there? What's, what's going on with that?
00:16:30 Margo Cilker
Don't know about the near future. I mean, I would. Love to own a ranch off of Skyline Blvd. Among us. But it's. It's sort of unattainable for many reasons right now. I don't. I don't have 10 mil laying around, OK?
00:16:47 Joe Kendrick
Land prices and.
00:16:51 Margo
Oh. Yeah. It's just one of those things.
00:16:55 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, I come from, you know, like the place where I live now is the old family place, which is. My kids, I think are the 5th generation in that house, which is very unusual, but I can relate to the whole pull of the family homestead.
00:17:05 Margo Cilker
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
00:17:13 Joe Kendrick
And and that in place is so important, I think place is very important in your songwriting too. And I think that's part of what makes you and so many songwriters that have place at the, you know, somewhere near the center of, of what they're doing, as relatable as. Having that in heel.
Do you have any comment? Am I close?
00:17:37 Margo Cilker
Sorry. Well.
00:17:41 Margo Cilker
I'm a huge Lucinda Williams fan. I know she always thinks about plays in a. Way that's very. Stirring for me personally. Sorry.
00:17:52 Margo Cilker
I'm getting water.
You know, every every song writer has their personality come through. In their songs and. There are just certain things that come out and for me. That's just kind of singing about specific places is something that has. Just kind of cropped up. You know, I don't. My best art comes when I I'm not trying too hard, and when I just find out what's on the other side of the song, it's just like anybody listening to it on for all over the three minutes, you know, like for. Me. That's like when I'm at my best.
I'm just the medium and I'm like, finding out what. Writing you know, so I have nothing. There's no comment I could make about why I sing about small towns across the country. It's just something I do. I don't know why?
00:18:42 Joe Kendrick
Yeah. You mentioned earlier about having that piece and that being still as as. The best. Sort of environment for your songwriting and so being medium.
Letting the song come to you instead of. Actually being the central figure in the song necessarily being a conduit, maybe that's the way.
00:19:07 Margo Cilker
Yeah, a conduit! [coughs]
00:19:13 Joe Kendrick
Right. Any road stories or entertaining anecdotes to share with us? What do you not want to do on tour?
00:19:29 Margo Cilker
Yeah. Well. I. I do love a green room that has a. Couch. I can take a nap.
[untitled new song inspired by Neil Young by Margo Cilker, performed live at Albino Skunk Music Festival 05/09/24, continuing as bed]
Closing out this episode of Southern Songs and Stories with a new, yet unnamed song by Margo Cilker, which concluded her set at the Albino Skunk Music Festival, which is celebrating its 30th anniversary this October. Leading up to that, we have another artist from last spring’s festival to feature here, with our next episode on Maya De Vitry.
Thank you so much for listening, and we hope you can help us increase awareness of what we are doing. It is as easy as telling a friend and following this podcast on your platform of choice, both of which are quick, easy and free! From there it takes just a moment to give us a top rating, and where it is an option, a review! It makes a great difference because the more top reviews and ratings we get, the more visible we become to everyone on those platforms, which means that more people just like you connect with artists like Margo Cilker.
This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available at osirispod.com. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio at bluegrassplanetradio.com. Thanks to Glynn Zigler and everyone on staff at the Albino Skunk Music Festival for making this episode possible; thanks also to Jaclyn Anthony for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng who wrote and performed our theme songs. I am your host and producer Joe Kendrick, and this is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.
Southern Songs and Stories is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
