Old but Not Dead: How Sally Anne Morgan Redefines the Meaning of Old Time Music
Taking tunes off the grid while contemplating Ralph Waldo Emerson
Update:
So much is happening, and so much is good! We introduced you to Elena Dickson in June; now Elena takes her turn at hosting and producing an episode! This leads directly to our next episode, which we are working on now: western North Carolina artist (by way of Austin, Nashville, New Orleans and New York), Seth Walker. Elena took part in Seth’s interview and the production of that forthcoming podcast, so before she departs for her senior year at the University of Michigan, we wanted to bump Seth’s episode ahead in line, a line which includes Albino Skunk Fest and WNCW favorite Eddie 9V (an interview where WNCW’s Saturday Night House Party host Mike Dew took part), New Orleans singer songwriter Andrew Duhon, Jeff Tweedy (!), and soon, Jerry Douglas, who is returning to the Earl Scruggs Music Festival alongside his bandmates in the Earls of Leicester, and Alison Krauss and Union Station.
Other exciting developments: This weekend, we trek to Asheville to record a live session and interview with the supergroup I’m With Her, which will be broadcast on WNCW next week; on July 25th , I will be a guest on NPR podcast New Music Friday with host Stephen Thompson, where we will discuss albums released that day from the likes of Patty Griffin, Tyler Childers and Indigo De Souza, among others.
This is the written version of the podcast episode on Sally Anne Morgan in the series Southern Songs and Stories. For the audio version, including music excepts, follow the series wherever you find podcasts.
Introduction:
In this episode, we welcome WNCW intern Elena Dickson to the podcast. Elena is a student at the University of Michigan, and here, she takes a turn at the helm for our episode on western North Carolina artist Sally Anne Morgan:
My favorite Ralph Waldo Emerson quote reads, “Cause and effect, means and ends, seed and fruit, cannot be severed; for the effect already blooms in the cause, the end preexists in the means, the fruit in the seed.” It makes me think of the interconnectedness that lies beneath all our actions and that everything we do–from deciding what to eat for breakfast to moving across the country–has a deep impact on our lives in areas we don’t even realize.
Sally Anne Morgan embodies Emerson’s coda. Even as a visual artist, musician, mother, and brewery owner, she emphasized how circular life feels: we are nothing without where we came from and where we came from wouldn’t have been possible without what we have become. She embodies this through her music through her traditional techniques to create innovative elements. Rooting herself in tradition while employing new age elements, she resists the conformity and neatness that recording software, and certain genres, often demands. While she views old time and other music traditions as a living artform rather than something that belongs in the archives. Her stories have a background and history but they have nothing close to an end.
When I decided to apply to WNCW to enhance my senior thesis on Appalachian storytelling, I had to explain why I was doing what I was doing to a few more people than I would have liked. Next time someone asks, I will send them this podcast so they can see the fluidity of storytelling and how deeply enmeshed it is with all other aspects of our lives. Telling a story does not require a defined beginning, middle, and end. Instead, it requires a conversation and a dedication to honoring what the story was and what it is going to become. Sally Anne Morgan creates in a way that makes you want to participate in the conversation and keep the story alive.
Podcast Script:
[“Eye Is The First” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Horizon, continuing as bed]
Joe Kendrick:
Making Southern Songs and Stories podcasts is usually a solo endeavor. Outside of face to face interviews with artists, most of the time producing an episode is off in my own corner. Hours spent reading, researching, thinking and thinking and writing and writing, and then the final stretch of solitude in a soundproof studio, recording a voiceover, arranging all the pieces of the interview and inserting music excerpts before mixing it all down and eventually sharing it with you, in podcast-land as well as on the radio. Our guest in this episode, Sally Anne Morgan, has a similar creative process, as you will hear. But Sally Anne also brings in collaborators, and every once in a while I am lucky to do so as well. In recent episodes, you may recall my mention of WNCW intern Elena Dickson. Now, Elena gets to sit in the driver's seat, and it is a perfect time, because her senior thesis focuses on traditional storytelling techniques in the Appalachian region, with an emphasis on its cultural ties to the natural world, and radio’s role in spreading traditional cultures in the region and to the outside world. The synergy between Elena’s field of study and Sally Anne Morgan’s background and music was impossible to miss, so we decided that Elena should write and host this episode.
You are listening to Sally Anne Morgan now, with her song “Eye Is The First “ from her 2025 album Second Circle the Horizon, a captivating collection of instrumentals, released on the Chicago based label Thrill Jockey. I am Joe Kendrick, inviting you to get to know Elena Dickson and our guest Sally Anne Morgan here on Southern Songs and Stories.
[SSaS theme song with VO by Joe K]
Elena Dickson:
As people found new ground to plant their roots in the 18th century, musicians found themselves neighboring others with instruments they had never heard of. Old time music, gaining commercial popularity in the early 20th century, brought elements from all over the globe and across many different cultures and regions. It was the sound of progressivism in communities built on migration. As technology and the music industry evolved, allowing artists to record and sell their work, the label “Old Time” was created to describe old familiar fiddle tunes, ballads, and other folk music from history.
With its historical roots and initial popularity before the recording and producing technology that allowed music to enter spaces it had never reached before, well versed fans and even some musicians can feel the clearly defined rules and regulations of old Time music. Commonly mistaken for the other, bluegrass differentiated itself through its improvised solos, making it music for performance while old time was music for social gatherings like dances. As time went on, more genres and labels hatched from the old time tradition. It makes me wonder, has the labeling of old time limited modern musicians from adding to its discography? Does our access to new technology push contemporary old time music to new evolutions, or does implementing these technologies nullify new additions to the genre? Old time is rooted in the everyman, but does that definition change as the circumstance and access of the everyman changes?
When I listen to old time music, it is often when I’m trying to add the finishing touches on a paper. There’s something about the details hidden in fiddle melodies and banjo rolls that makes me see how I should lay out my argument or tell my story. I almost ground myself in traditional elements so I can use them as a foundation to make something new and thought-provoking. Using traditional elements in their contemporary counterparts, like oral storytelling techniques in academic essays, can bridge the perceived distance between a culture that once was and what it has become now, preserving the tradition while simultaneously modernizing and pushing the craft forward. Sally Anne Morgan, North Carolina based musician, artist, and mother, exists on this precarious boundary between the old and the new, bringing her roots in traditional music with her as she engages with the ever changing world we live in today.
Joe Kendrick and I picked Sally’s brain on the relationship between the eccentricity of nature and being human at her home in Alexander, North Carolina. Ensconced along the mountains and French Broad River just outside Asheville, the location allows her to remain unchanged from unnatural elements while still giving opportunity to change her music, her perception, and ultimately the community around her. We talked about her organic influences, what defines old time music, the impact of human connection, and so much more. I’m your host, Elena Dickson, welcoming you to Southern Songs and Stories with Sally Anne Morgan.
[“Flowers Of Shandihar” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Horizon, excerpt]
We sat in a circle in her letterpress studio. Boxes filled with prints, scraps of paper and practice sheets, and her child’s artwork lined the walls around us. Her dog, Barney, who is at least 100 lbs, sat next to me and let me scratch his ears, and his back, and his belly. Before getting down to business, I had the opportunity to help her weed her garden and see a little bit of the scenery that inspires her music. She showed me wool that she had sheared, how she tricks her toddler into pitching in with the yard work, and a yard that I would say could give her the title of mountain Martha Stewart, if Martha Stewart was interested in homesteading.
00:45:25-01:36:09 SAM
We have about four acres, and we have some sheep. We have a donkey, we have chickens and a big garden and, yeah, we love it out here.
00;01;36;12 - 00;01;41;19 Joe Kendrick
Yeah, it's very picturesque. And I love the flowers and what little I've seen of it so far.
00;01;41;25 - 00;01;56;02 SAM
Well, June is the best month because nothing is, like, overrun yet. But everything's just, like, full on green and full of life, I think.
Sally’s ability to bring the natural into the recording booth reverberates through her recent albums, Carrying released in 2023 and her newest Second Circle: The Horizon. In a quote about her new album, she said she “wanted to capture the feeling of walking outside and encountering organic nature sounds, some with patterns, some with a randomness that also verges on its own kind of patterns.”
00;02;21;05 - 00;03;15;08 SAM
Yeah, I guess that's my way of, like, saying that I wanted there to be like, this organic feeling to my music that I feel is very reminiscent of just being outside. I'm not recording, you know, field recordings of nature. But I am. I like, for example, on the banjo, like, I'm not playing like a rhythmic clawhammer. A lot of the time it's more like, I don't know, to me, it's like it's like rain falling or something that's like, not, to a grid. It's not like a regular rhythm, but it's just got, it's like this round nature, organic thing.
If you think the title sounds familiar, you may be recalling the transcendentalist movement in your old literature classes.
00;09;57;25 - 00;11;53;11 SAM
The title comes from an essay on circles that a friend sent to me, kind of after my last record, Carrying, where I was saying one of the big themes of everything just seemed circular, like the theme was circles. And I still feel that way. When you start to see circles in everything, nothing is not a circle. Even a line becomes a circle, you know? But one of the lines from that essay is, “the eye is the first circle, the horizon it sees is the second.”
The circularity and rhythmic philosophies go past giving meaning and depth to her music, grounding her in seasonality and keeping her attuned with everything going on around her. From motherhood to being a full time artist, the inevitable chaos becomes less overwhelming as she reconnects with the cycles repeating around her.
00;13;22;06 - 00;13;47;08 SAM
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I actually have a background in geology. I studied that in college, and so I feel like sometimes when I like, I just start thinking about deep time and how much the earth has changed over the billions of years it's been here. And like, it is change.
00;08;26;22 - 00;09;50;11 SAM
it is still just deeply human music that really touches people, I think because of just how good it is
[“I Saw A Heron” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Eye, excerpt]
This organic exploration of music and her unique approach is a result from her long history in the old time tradition. While she practiced traditional fiddle tunes for over ten years and explored ballad singing, it didn’t always feel like a place where she could explore the genre in unorthodox ways, almost like she was being confined.
00;03;40;23 - 00;06;00;07 SAM
It just felt like homework to have to, like, study and I stopped wanting to do that.
Even in hitting a rut, all hope was not lost. Her label, Thrill Jockey, forged the connection that would propel Sally into success.
00;14;09;27 - 00;16;35;02 SAM
So, Thrill Jockey is the label I've been on for a number of releases now, and I feel incredibly lucky that they have supported me and, like, trust me with my vision. The Black Twig Pickers had a record out on Thrill Jockey. That's how I kind of got my foot in the door. And I've gotten to know Bettina, who runs a label, and she's like, such a I don't know, I just idolize her, honestly.
The Black Twig Pickers brought an end to her confinement, broadening her horizons and showing her how to push the boundaries of the genre.
00;03;40;23 - 00;06;00;07 SAM
I still play with them. They also have a different approach where, you know, I think in the traditional music world, there are people who are just super narrowly fixed, fixated or focused on that. But these guys were like talking about Terry Riley and, you know, John Coltrane and like, Harry Flint and just, and Mike Gangloff, who is the, you know, one of the founding members, the other fiddle player, plays in Pelt and they were opening for Sonic Youth in the 90s. So there was just this different perspective that I was slowly drawn into. And so when I was getting into ballads, there was like, always, you know, we didn't want to just be straight up, treating it like an archived tradition, but treating it like something alive and making it -- I mean to say experimental seems a little too easy also, because we're not like, oh, how can we make this experimental?
[“Blind Man’s Lament” by Black Twig Pickers, from Rough Carpenters, excerpt]
As she worked with other artists and explored what the genre meant to her with new bounds, Sally found what she believes to define the music she creates: humanity.
00;21;08;23 - 00;22;05;21 SAM
I think old time music is like psychedelic music, in that it is just trancey. sometimes players like to kind of smooth that out now, to its detriment, I think. But I think this is kind of just across the board with humanity. There's like hollering music from all over the world, that if you were to play it to someone born in the past 30 years who's never heard something that's not been music that's not snapped to a grid, they wouldn't know what to do with it. I don't know, Yeah, I think we're just freaky.
Sally sees the beauty within the place her music journey brought her. Here’s Joe Kendrick talking with her about the relationships and joyful moments she carries that led her to this place.
00;22;35;21 - 00;23;09;09 Joe Kendrick
I think thinking about that sort of magical trance about some old time music reminds me of a conversation that I had with Jeff Puryear of Donna the Buffalo. He was talking about how you kind of lock in together, and I don't know how he described it exactly, maybe kind of like a feedback loop. But, you know, he was talking about “making heat”, and you get into that groove and it's the same groove and you just keep with that same groove.
00;23;09;12 - 00;24;04;04 SAM
Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's all about energy and I think there's like, there's like energy currents in the air that we have no idea exist. But there's something really magical that can happen. And I, you know, this record was mostly me, like recording it myself, in a room, overdubbing myself. So I didn't play with other people. Thinking back to the Black Twig Pickers, there's something lost and something gained. I guess when you're, like, doing something alone by yourself. I needed that at the time. I think I just needed to get out of my system somehow.
While most of the tracks on Circles were initially recorded without other collaborators, Sally brought in other artists to the final versions including synthesizer player Sean Dunlap and Brian the Geologist on the hurdy gurdy. You heard me right, the hurdy gurdy. This stringed instrument popular in the Baroque era produces sound from a rosined wheel rubbing against the string, similar to a violin’s bow. Instead of a bow, though, a crank-operated wheel rubs against the strings to create the other-worldly sound.
00;14;09;27 - 00;16;35;02 SAM
Since the first time I heard the hurdy gurdy ever played, I just remember being like, what is that sound? I was not in the room. It was like someone had brought it to Fiddler's Convention and it sounded like an electronic instrument to me. Like it has this crazy sound that it's like medieval, though. So, when I found out that Brian played the hurdy gurdy, I was just really into it and I talked to him about it, and he was like, he said he liked Cups, my previous instrumental record or cassette. And so he said he would contribute some hurdy gurdy.
[“Dog’s Dream” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Eye, excerpt]
Even in the singular nature of the record’s creation, Sally is reconnecting with the community based traditions she dug her roots into in old time music. On June 20th, she and her band played at Rare Bird Farm, celebrating a lightning bug festival and the release of her album.
00;24;24;25 - 00;25;39;08 SAM
Okay, well, so back to my journey. Where I just come back around to everything. Now I'm back around to playing with the band, so I will have my husband playing along with me. I was like, you have to play this banjo over and over again and just pretend you're a robot. and then I'm like, okay, now you play this on the electric guitar over and over again and don't listen to anyone else because I want to be able to play off of you. He's a great musician and he's up for that. And then I have a friend who's going to play upright bass and someone playing drums, and then someone playing viola slash lap steel. So we'll be playing songs from my previous record Carrying, which did have words and then some of these new instrumentals as well. And turns out it's also fun doing it in the band.
00;25;39;10 - 00;25;45;28 Joe Kendrick
What else is on the near horizon? What do you want to get out of this record?
00;25;46;01 - 00;26;39;22 SAM
Gosh, I think the big rediscovery for me with this record is the playing in the band because I had thought like, oh, like, maybe I'll get a sampler and figure out how to use that. So it's already been huge just to like, rediscover my love of being in a band with people. I wish I could play more, but we have two little kids, like a one year old and a three year old, so it's hard for me to leave. Never mind like, both me and my husband. We make it work, but it's difficult. So, that's said. Yeah, I could see a handful of other shows this summer if they fall into my lap. I'm not really, like, seeking things out. But if someone approaches me and it seems like, oh, it will work, I usually say yes.
Even as she prepares to perform the new release, nothing compares to the air of the Appalachian mountains. Despite residing in the region for over 20 years, Sally Anne Morgan honors her Northern Virginia upbringing in a way that brings nuance to the perspective of her environment.
00;30;23;27 - 00;30;41;15 Joe Kendrick
Being originally from outside the region, I bet you have some great insight into Appalachian culture and identity. Also, now that you've been here long enough that you could experience it from being a resident.
00;30;41;18 - 00;31;28;21 SAM
I don't know, I feel like for everything I learn, there's like, the opposite experience also happens. I think one thing like getting into traditional music has taught me is that. And I will say, I do think there is something really magical about the mountains around here. Energetically, however, everywhere is equally old and everyone is equally old. You know, like we're all like, there's exciting old time music from like, Arizona, you know? And it's all like, meshed together and mixed together. So.
Sally’s approach to old time music bodes well for new generations and trail blazers to come and transform the music
00;31;37;02 - 00;32;11;21 SAM
We just went to a Mount Airy Fiddlers Convention in Surrey County. It's been going on for over 50 years. And, you know, there's like young kids there now who are just like, whizzes on the fiddle, but they learn it all from YouTube and it's like, that's cool to like, I don't know, I just don't think there are rules and nor should there be any.
00;32;11;23 - 00;32;48;02 Joe Kendrick
That's one thing I think that speaks well about the future of roots music, like string band music, is that there are so many young kids coming up in the tradition, and they're good and these musics don't need amplification, and so you don't need a lot of gear, etc.. And there's an active community fostering these traditions and, you know, “knee to knee”, just always passing it down to the next generation. That seems to keep it very vital.
00;32;48;04 - 00;33;25;02 SAM
Yeah, totally. It's so vibrant and it's so alive and like, yeah, I think it's when people try to start treating it like it belongs in a museum. You know, that's what kind of gets to me. And yeah, I think in some ways, like this record of mine is like an extension of old time music. If people are open minded enough. And at least one song on it is Callahan is like from a fiddle tune.
[“Callahan” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Eye, excerpt]
Ending with “Callahan”, you can hear Sean Dunlap’s synthesizer and Joseph Dejarnette’s bass echoing in the background, giving the song more of a dramatic arc than the lush scene depicted in “I Saw a Heron”. “Callahan” makes me feel like I’m following a journey similar to the protagonists of The Secret of the Kells or Over the Garden Wall, two pieces of media that I grew up with depicting young travelers on journeys in unknown places. As other instruments are introduced, you feel like you are finding others in the forest on your path, ending with an entanglement of all three instruments after a solitary violin beginning to show the relationships that can develop between strangers traveling the same uncertain path.
Sally Anne Morgan continues to bridge the history of old time music into the modern era, showing us what using traditional elements can mean as the original circumstances they were made in are long gone. Treating music as a living art form rather than an archive of specific elements makes the connection between musicians, listeners, and the world around us so much deeper.
[“Night Mint” by Sally Anne Morgan, from Second Circle the Eye, continuing as bed]
Did you know that there are over 150 episodes of Southern Songs and Stories available anytime for free anywhere you find podcasts? It’s true! Also they have a home on southernsongsandstories.com, where there are many more articles and photos to go along with those episodes.
You can follow us on social media: at southstories on Instagram, at Southern Songs and Stories on Facebook, and you can view these episodes and a lot more on Joe’s YouTube channel, at the handle JoeKendrickNC. Like to read? We’re now on Substack, where you can read the scripts of these podcasts, and get updates on what we are doing and planning in our quest to explore and celebrate the unfolding history and culture of music rooted in the American South, and going beyond to the styles and artists that it inspired and informed.
This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available at osirispod.com. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio at bluegrassplanetradio.com. Thanks to Jaclyn Anthony for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng who wrote and performed our theme songs, and Joe Kendrick for guiding me through production of this episode. I am your host and producer Elena Dickson, and this is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.